This is perhaps the 5th blog I have read talking about "ignoring" Nader. Posting about him is hardly ignoring him.

Ack, I hate the taste of talking points in the morning. He's in, he can't win, why talk about it?

Posted by: Gatchaman at February 22, 2004 11:03 AM | PERMALINK

And I promise not even to comment on the silly narcissist's masturbatory campaign.

Oops.

Posted by: TonyB at February 22, 2004 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

Instead, I'll comment about how cool Gatchaman's handle is. Although I knew the series as "Battle of the Planets."

Posted by: Gregory at February 22, 2004 11:04 AM | PERMALINK

Ha ha Greogry, I did too. But Gatchaman gives me much more nerd-cred. Were you a Force Five fan also?

Posted by: Gatchaman at February 22, 2004 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

How much is Shrubco paying him to run so he can split the vote in a key state or two, and hand them the election.

Antoinetta III

Posted by: Antoinetta III at February 22, 2004 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

I hate to rain on your parade, Kevin, but your ignoring him (or not) will not make the slightest difference.
The real question is whether Dean will officially or unofficially side with Nader. If he does, all your ignoring won't hide the fact that he will be a huge drag on Kerry's vote total.
If Dean ignores him as well, Nader may well become pretty irrelevant in this campaign.

Posted by: fw at February 22, 2004 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

Okay.

No snide asides or mala fides in regards to Ralph Nadir.

Oops.

Just don't ask us to give up our Joe Lieberman wrath yet.

Okay?

Posted by: -pea- at February 22, 2004 11:06 AM | PERMALINK

But can the rest of us make a pact to just ignore him?

After this comment, yes, I will dutifully initiate Operation Ignore.

Posted by: NTodd at February 22, 2004 11:07 AM | PERMALINK

The real question is whether Dean will officially or unofficially side with Nader.

There's no question at all. Dean has stated that he will do whatever it takes to defeat Bush, he supports the Democratic Party, and he would like his followers to do the same:

Let me be clear, I will not run as an independent or third party candidate and I urge my supporters not to be tempted to support any effort by another candidate.

Posted by: NTodd at February 22, 2004 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

Ignore Mr. Nader? When he believes what so many on the Calpundit comments board believe? I would have thought there would be a wellspring of support bubbling up here! :-)

Mr. Nader will get the attention he deserves. If he can poll at or above about 3% or so he won't be ignored.

As a moderate lib-conservative, I rather admire what Mr. Nader is doing -- sticking to his beliefs and trying to build a third party. It's perhaps the hardest thing to do in American politics. If Mr. Nader had re-joined the Democratic party he could have been a Cabinet secretary in a Clinton or Gore administration. By standing with the Greens he's reduced his stature amongst some of you, but he's fighting for his beliefs. You have to admire that even if you don't like his politics (and I don't).

If Mr. Kerry is the Dem nominee I predict some swing to Mr. Nader right about the time the electorate concludes that Mr. Kerry is a really awful candidate (e.g., around Sept. 15th). It's not inconceivable that Mr. Nader and the Greens could get the 5% they need to qualify for Federal funding in a future election.

Posted by: Steve White at February 22, 2004 11:10 AM | PERMALINK

WHO?

Posted by: Mike at February 22, 2004 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

I hope a bus driver ignores Nader as well.

As in, doesn't see him crossing the street.

Posted by: SamAm at February 22, 2004 11:13 AM | PERMALINK

*sigh*

At least he's not pretending to be a Green this time.

Posted by: Rana at February 22, 2004 11:14 AM | PERMALINK

It's hard to see Nader getting nearly as many votes this year as he did in 2000. I think many who voted for him in 2000 now understand the damage he did to the country in that election (who knew the Bush administration was to be as awful as it's turned out to be?). I suspect a large number of those voters aren't going to be suckered again. That's my last comment on Nader this year.

Posted by: Michael at February 22, 2004 11:15 AM | PERMALINK

Well, his impact will probably not be as big as some Democrats fear, but it's not possible to ignore him, for the following reasons:

• Kerry's going to have to move considerably to the center if he wins the nomination, because his Senate voting record is at best inconsistent, at worst it's somewhat to the left of independents and swing voters.

• Because of this, Kerry faces a very delicate balancing act in which he risks losing "progressives" to the Nader camp.
  

I don't know if Democratic unity will hold. It's been amusing reading posts at Democratic Underground since the story broke. The division is already evident there. Some "progressives" there are posting death threats and some of the wackier ones are claiming that Karl Rove is funding the Nader campaign.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:17 AM | PERMALINK

SamAm, are you advocating the running over of a person just because you don't like their political stance?
I assume you're joking, but I must say that it is a pretty tasteless joke.
If you're not joking, that's even worse.

Are people so loopy that in order to ensure that Bush is not reelected they would be willing to kill someone? Attitudes like that will only ensure Bush's reelection.

Take a deep breath, SamAm, and keep things in perspective.

Posted by: Man United at February 22, 2004 11:18 AM | PERMALINK

I rather admire what Mr. Nader is doing -- sticking to his beliefs and trying to build a third party.

Ahem. Running as an independent does not equate with trying to build a third party. That would take, you know, a party or something.

Posted by: apostropher at February 22, 2004 11:20 AM | PERMALINK

No, joking, perhaps, go Arsenal.

Posted by: SamAm at February 22, 2004 11:21 AM | PERMALINK

Don't forget that the Greens will be running a candidate this year.. so on top of Nader there may be Peter Camejo to contend with.

Posted by: aphid at February 22, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Well, there goes my theory that the level of dialog here was superior to Democratic Underground. Since I sent my post above, there's already been one death wish and one conspiracy theory about the Republicans funding Nader.

Some dreams die hard.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:23 AM | PERMALINK

Add Ann Coulter & Clownhall to the "Do Ignore List"

Posted by: dick tuck at February 22, 2004 11:26 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, wherefore art thou, modest trolls?

Steve White:

If Mr. Kerry is the Dem nominee I predict some swing to Mr. Nader right about the time the electorate concludes that Mr. Kerry is a really awful candidate (e.g., around Sept. 15th). It's not inconceivable that Mr. Nader and the Greens could get the 5% they need to qualify for Federal funding in a future election.

LOL! Yes, I agree with Steve, I think that there will be a real move towards Nader - just not by Dems, but by the fed-up 'thugs, who in their IRRATIONAL HATRED, just can't see pulling the lever for a REAL, certified, non-aWol war hero.

So please, all you disillusioned ex-Bushies that can't stomach the thought of voting for a Dem in November, give Ralphie-boy the 5% he needs to qualify for future funding. Please!

Posted by: dm at February 22, 2004 11:28 AM | PERMALINK

He will have no effect on the Democratic nominee. He will take Republican votes away.

Posted by: Rook at February 22, 2004 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

Oferchrissakes. I don't want Nader to die. Politics and "really wanting someone to dead" aren't even in the same realm."

That said, there's no politician of the left I hate more than Nader. He is worthy of mocking in the extreme. His entire political existance is based on a huge lie. He's wrong in his worldview and wrong in what he wants.

But I he's still going wrong at 105, less power to him.

Posted by: SamAm at February 22, 2004 11:31 AM | PERMALINK

if* not I.

Posted by: SamAm at February 22, 2004 11:32 AM | PERMALINK

Here are some more productive suggestions:

* Join the Corvair Society of America (http://www.corvair.org/), and I'm speaking as one who was in a Corvair accident.

* Get active in defunding the check off fees that fund the various college PIRGs throughout the nation.

He needs to be slapped down.

Posted by: Matthew Saroff at February 22, 2004 11:33 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, and btw trolls, thanks for making a Kerry-believer out of this certified-insane Deaniac. Hope your attempts to sow disunity work as well on others as they have on me.

xxoooxxo

Posted by: dm at February 22, 2004 11:34 AM | PERMALINK

He will have no effect on the Democratic nominee. He will take Republican votes away.

Care to expand on that theory, since it makes absolutely no sense from where I sit?

Nader is against free trade, pro regulation of private industry, against laissez faire in general, against the war in Iraq.

Just where do you see their interests intersecting?

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:37 AM | PERMALINK

Oh, and btw trolls, thanks for making a Kerry-believer out of this certified-insane Deaniac. Hope your attempts to sow disunity work as well on others as they have on me.

First of all, don't flatter yourself. I have zilch interest in "sowing disunity," and frankly don't care how you vote.

Interesting definition of "troll," though. I guess for you, a troll is someone who calls it as they see it on a site that has no membership requirements whose opinion happens to differ from yours.

Cheers.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:43 AM | PERMALINK

with over 200 mil. accounted for, i don't think it is inconcievable that nader could be collecting unaccounted covert funds from the wingnuts. although i don't think nader knows where the money is coming from. the wingnuts are propping up sharpton. it is not as though there is no historical precident for covertly funding third party candidates.

Posted by: djm at February 22, 2004 11:46 AM | PERMALINK

I think kerry (and edwards for that matter) would be capable of speaking to the swing voters without abandoning their progressive base. If the democratic nominee can do this, then nader isn't going to be a factor. People are going to support whoever they feel supports them, it's that simple. If they don't feel the democratic nominee represents them, they won't and SHOULDN'T vote democrat.

I'm glad nader is running, and i won't be voting for him, because he's not the best candidate.

Posted by: Dutch at February 22, 2004 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

A comment on the PIRG fees... I'm a former PIRG employee, and I was shouted down at a PIRG meeting once many years ago when I dared to ask why we, as a political group, thought that we deserved a check-off funding. I was all in favor of earning our money. I was told that we didn't ask those kinds of questions, and I was an ex-PIRG employee soon after that.

I equate moments like that to Nader's desperate attempt to explain why he won't release his tax records.

Not only is Nader an ego-maniac, but he's a hypocrite as well. He demands from others what he is unwilling to do himself.

Posted by: Chris Lehmann at February 22, 2004 11:48 AM | PERMALINK

the wingnuts are propping up sharpton

Oh, jeez, the Village Voice runs an article about one Republican helping Sharpton raise money, and now it's a conspiracy.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:54 AM | PERMALINK

The "Threat" of Saint Ralph is far less than it was four years ago, if one can call it a threat. Mounting an indie campaign this late in the game will ensure he does not appear on a significant number of state ballots. The fact that the Green Party doesn't want him in their group says a lot.

The really sad thing is that Democratic Insiders knew of this threat years ago, and could have done something to knock out this cockroach a long time ago. A simple review of his ability to turn progressive activism in to a "business", his less-than-ethical work creating the "record club style" fee system for PIRGs at colleges, and the worst anti-union record this side of Andrew Carnegie, make him unfit to be Dogcatcher, much less President, or Progressive "Maximum Leader."

Ralph will have his angry minions whining about not being let into some stupid debate, and will be out there being the bitter, angry crank he is. I'd give more credence to a run by the meth addicts who talk to the wall in Venice as much as I would one by St. Ralph.

Posted by: Schadelmann at February 22, 2004 11:56 AM | PERMALINK

I, for one, will be donating to Ralph's campaign. Go, Ralph, Go!

Posted by: Andrew at February 22, 2004 11:58 AM | PERMALINK

all said----just stay mad at the conservatives for stealing our country...do not let that anger fail us again. do not be complacent.

naderites will have to make up their own minds, but let us allow them to have their opinions and not smack them around like the neocons would. actually, i think they will make many attempts to cultivate their friendship-so, we must beward.

DO NOT LET THE ANGER FAIL US! BUSH HAS TO GO!!

Posted by: sephilip at February 22, 2004 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

I think kerry (and edwards for that matter) would be capable of speaking to the swing voters without abandoning their progressive base. If the democratic nominee can do this, then nader isn't going to be a factor.

I dont think we disagree. It all hinges on this.

Maybe more important than the Nader factor is whether Kerry will motivate people to go to the polls if the Dean base is lukewarm towards him.

I read something yesterday about the low voter turnout in the Wisconsin primary. Kerry actually got fewer votes than Michael Dukakis when he ran in that primary.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 11:59 AM | PERMALINK

After reading these these post's I have come to one conclusion. The Antichrist is very much alive and smiling.

Posted by: John Jaosn at February 22, 2004 12:02 PM | PERMALINK

Well, Karl Marx was right.

"History repeats itself, first as tragedy, then as farce"

Ralph Nader has single-handedly turned himself into Lyndon LaRouche. It's not a pretty sight is it? I'm not sure who has the better grasp on reality.

But there you have it. Last time all the delusional Greens claimed that Bush=Gore. That there were no meaningful differences between them. This year its Nader=LaRouche.

I'm sure we'll see a few of raving lunatic Naderites prowling around the edges of political events. But most people will mistake them for LaRouche-ites and politely avert their eyes.

Posted by: Kent at February 22, 2004 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

He isn't building a third party...he is running as an independent. this will become even more tragic-comical when the Greens enter yet another candidate in Nader's shadow.

Posted by: Keith Brekhus at February 22, 2004 12:03 PM | PERMALINK

Hey, LaRouche at least tries to win in the primaries. If Nader want to shape the Democrats he should run in their primary. I think he has too high a negative image now for any strategy to work, but a candidate with his views, packaged correctly, could make a splash in the primaries.

Posted by: Keith Brekhus at February 22, 2004 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

Don't forget that the Greens will be running a candidate this year.. so on top of Nader there may be Peter Camejo to contend with.

It was my understanding that the Greens were only going to compete in "safe" Dem states. I have no reference for that, but I recall reading folks in the party saying stuff like that when He Who Shall Be Ignored was first contemplating a run under the Green banner.

Posted by: NTodd at February 22, 2004 12:07 PM | PERMALINK

"SamAm, are you advocating the running over of a person just because you don't like their political stance?"

Don't be silly. There is a difference between hoping someone gets run over because they do not share your political stance and hoping someone gets run over because they have already lived the best years of their life, are now just a pale shadow of their former glory, and they are in a constant state of misery. The same impulse that makes you wish a 10 year old horse with 3 broken legs and a fractured set of ribs would die could be at play here, and not have anything to do with politics. Ralph Nader should of gotten some cancer that was ironically caused by pollution he unsucseffully fought against or been killed when the rear suspension of a Corvair that wasn't fixed gave out and died a fitfully ironic death years ago.

"I assume you're joking, but I must say that it is a pretty tasteless joke. If you're not joking, that's even worse."

I'm not joking.

"Are people so loopy that in order to ensure that Bush is not reelected they would be willing to kill someone?"

No, I wouldn't actually kill Ralph Nader, and I doubt the original poster would either, but if he were to die from an allergy to granola or a tree from an overgrown forest falling on his head, I would laugh a hearty laugh and shed nary a tear.

Posted by: TomK at February 22, 2004 12:08 PM | PERMALINK

"But can the rest of us make a pact to just ignore him?"

Sorry, Kevin, but no. Not this time. Ignoring him didn't work in 2000, and it sure as hell won't work this time. We need about as many "Sister Souljah" moments as we can get, at this point.

Nader no longer deserves even our neglect. He deserves active excoriation, and at least from me, he's gonna get it.

Posted by: Kenneth G. Cavness at February 22, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

Run, Ralph, Run.

This is a *good* thing and I, for one, am going to enjoy it. Nader is not running as a Green, so he'll have to abandon all his rhetoric about building a viable third-party. And soon you'll see some Greens start to criticize him. Then it'll really pile on.

Watching Nader embarrass himself will be good for everyone. It will be good for me so I can watch him suffer. And it will be good for his former supporters who can use this to get past their blind support for him and help them grow up.

Admit it though, aren't you looking forward to a debate between Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo?

Posted by: Dan at February 22, 2004 12:15 PM | PERMALINK

I'm not going to "ignore" Nader. He has alot of good things to say, and i think his criticisms of the current american political system are 100% dead on... although i wish he wasn't running.

But maybe you should ignore Andrew Sullivan, Kevin. You certain are devoting enough posts to him and his warped thought processes lately. Andrew Sullivan deserves to be ignored far more than Nader does.

Posted by: Tecla at February 22, 2004 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

jeez. "certainly"

Posted by: Tecla at February 22, 2004 12:20 PM | PERMALINK

In response, thanks for the correction, I had thought Nader was running as a Green. It's interesting for him to run as an independent -- wonder how many state ballots he'll make? More than he would have had he run 20 years ago, as candidacies like his, Perot, etc. have forced the states to be more accomodating to 3rd parties and independents.

Democrats do have a chance to do here what Republicans did to Pat Buchanan -- publicly turn their backs on the man. It ruined Buchanan, who deserved to be ruined. Would it ruin Nader? Don't know, but an interesting thought.

But again this is predicated on you Dems having a good candidate for the fall. Kerry's recent whining letter to GWB about his Vietnam record is priceless in that regard. Mr. Kerry seems to have what is termed in baseball as "rabbit ears". It's not a good idea for JFK to be signaling this early his soft spot like this. There's going to be more, of course. But a Democratic presidential candidate reduced to whining -- while winning -- in February doesn't bode well for the party.

And remember folks, Karl Rove hasn't even warmed up yet.

Posted by: Steve White at February 22, 2004 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

Tomk, just for the record, 10 years isn't old for a horse but i agree with your point.

Al

Posted by: alan aronson at February 22, 2004 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

I know this is off topic but....
I just had to put this in here

http://elemming2.blogspot.com/

Gov.rick perry(R)TX found in bed with another man!!!This is breaking news folks!I hope its true.Tx needs a break from the highly corrupt gop in texas.Lots of sources on the story too.

Posted by: smalfish at February 22, 2004 12:30 PM | PERMALINK

Bah!

Posted by: Quaker at February 22, 2004 12:33 PM | PERMALINK

There comes a point when, after the hits have stopped coming, the silence starts to close in. Nader's run is the functional equivalent of Janet's wardrobe malfunction, designed to bring the oxygen of the media spotlight to a dying career. The sound of me-me-me-me-me-me, over here, me-me-me-me-me-me ... what an embarrassment ...

I hope that the sales of Janet's new CD and Ralph's votes are roughly equal ...

Posted by: Bill Skeels at February 22, 2004 12:37 PM | PERMALINK

A nutball decides to run on a nutball platform, and it's automatically assumed he's going to suck up Democratic voters. Why? Doesn't say much for the Democratic constituency. Kind of reminds me of Florida, 2000, when the concern was the loss of votes from felons and people who somehow were unable to operate a punch card system that was easily mastered by third-graders. For some reason, it was automatically assumed by everyone that these were all lost Democratic votes. Why?

Posted by: tbrosz at February 22, 2004 12:39 PM | PERMALINK

Maybe he could be the "potty mouth" in this race. He wants Bush out as much as Democrats so he can run off about how Bush sucks and all that while someone like John Kerry can stay above the fray.

Please check out my site:

www.removebush.com

Thanks.

Posted by: Wade at February 22, 2004 12:45 PM | PERMALINK

Since I sent my post above, there's already been one death wish and one conspiracy theory about the Republicans funding Nader.

The death wish is stupid, but the Republicans are funding Sharpton, so that's worth discussing.

Posted by: Cryptic Ned at February 22, 2004 12:52 PM | PERMALINK

The death wish is stupid, but the Republicans are funding Sharpton, so that's worth discussing.

Okay, let's discuss it.

• Who are the Republican(s) other than the extremely small coterie surrounding Roger Stone that are funding Sharpton?

• Why does this even remotely make sense, since Sharpton is just a sideshow in the Democratic campaign? It would have made more sense for the Republicans to fund Dean, since he (at least in January) had a chance of winning the nomination, which would have riled up the Republican base.
  

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 01:00 PM | PERMALINK

Ballot access for Maryland means 10000 valid signatures by March 2. Conversely, Colorado, Florida and Louisiana have no signature requirement. Texas wants 65000 gathered bwteen 3/10 and 5/10. North Carolina wants a new political party and 59000 by 6/01. Delaware is demanding: there one must have 52015 by 7/15. Oklahoma want 37027 by the same date. California wants 153805 by 8/05 and beyond that there are all sorts of numbers and dates due - quite a few require 5000 to 10000 and lots of dates in August. This info is all from Nader's website. The door is wide open for state-level coordinators. I imagine only volunteers need apply.

Posted by: Fredric Markus at February 22, 2004 01:06 PM | PERMALINK

I agree, Kevin. Let's just ignore him. Good sound advice. What my mother always taught me unless the bullies were actually throwing punches.

Make Calpundit officially Nader-Free today!

Posted by: Bryrock at February 22, 2004 01:11 PM | PERMALINK

Is a pact even necessary? His announcement that he's running is about as much public attention as his campaign's going to get.

Posted by: Molly, NYC at February 22, 2004 01:15 PM | PERMALINK

Posted by Matthew Saroff: "He needs to be slapped down."

Nader could yet redeem himself. If he and his supporters bring in people who otherwise would not vote, if he rails primarily against Bush, and if he ultimately withdraws and strongly supports the Democratic nominee while urging his supporters to do so also -- stating plainly that there is a REAL difference -- then his candidacy could amount to a net gain for the Democratic ticket.

Nader is not stupid. No matter what is said about his ego, he knows he will not be elected president. He knows the 2000 election results were reversed by corruption in Florida. He knows that the press covered for Bush lies and that it invented Gore lies. So while he denies it, he knows also that the votes he received in 2000 swung the election to Bush. This trifecta of causes for the current Bush presidency all had to be present in order for Bush to be installed -- subtract any one of them and we'd have Gore now. Nader certainly knows this. His justification, which is not without some merit, was that there was little difference between Bush and Gore. But since 2000, Nader has also had to come to know the damage done by Bush and the dangers of another term. If this is so, he may finally see a significant difference between Bush and the 2004 Democratic nominee. If he does and if he follows the course outlined above, we may yet owe gratitude to Ralph Nader. A lot of ifs, I know; but our chances of actually winning in November have always been iffy.

Posted by: jayarbee at February 22, 2004 01:17 PM | PERMALINK

The central problem, as I see it, is the way we declare winners in elections in this country.

As of right now, if three pro-choice presidential candidates each won 24% of the vote and one pro-life candidate won 28%, it won't matter that the country was almost 3 to 1 pro-choice, the next nominees to the Supreme Court will be anti-Roe v. Wade. Substitute the cause most important to you in that blank, and it's still the same story --Unite or
Die.

There are many possible changes to the electoral system that could potentially make third parties extremely viable. Instant Runoff is one possible; even just requiring reballoting until an absolute majority is achieved is another. All plans have advantages and disadvantages. But as of right now, under the rules we have, the winner takes all and the winner is whoever can keep their troops united and focused. That's the inevitable result of the way we count ballots and declare winners, I think.

And that's also why third party candidates *do* matter --because in a populace as finely divided as ours, the side that does not successfully unite is the side that dies.

Sometimes, as in the national guardsmen called out in Iraq and unable to get away with not showing up to duty, rather literally.

Posted by: Jeff at February 22, 2004 01:26 PM | PERMALINK

I hope he's on the ballot of every state. I want a rematch of 2000, just so the electorate can sock W right in the kisser. Hard.

The bigger the Dem win in November, the stronger our democracy.

Posted by: Troy at February 22, 2004 01:27 PM | PERMALINK

It's an Ego run, nothing more, nothing less.

This year is different and if it allows GW to get re-elected, then it is because the Dems didn't get the job done

Posted by: Flash at February 22, 2004 01:37 PM | PERMALINK

Sorry for coming back so late...no, the local indie station didn't carry Force Five, but it made me a big Speed Racer fan, back in the day.

Posted by: Gregory at February 22, 2004 01:44 PM | PERMALINK

posted by Rook:"He will have no effect on the Democratic nominee. He will take Republican votes away." EXACTLY :)

Posted by: Peg at February 22, 2004 01:45 PM | PERMALINK

How about this thought from an Independent?

Instead of complaining about all of the votes lost to Nader, the Democratic Party actually takes in pieces of his platform, and EARNS those votes. People voting for Nader clearly have decided that he is more in line with their thinking than any of the other options. If Democrats want those constituents' votes, they need to invite them... not boldly lay claim to them. The only reason those "lost votes" were going to vote Democrat in the first place was due to a lack of an alternative.

Nobody, even people who want to beat Bush "really, really badly", should be labeling a candidacy or it's supporters as "ignorable" simply because that campaign takes votes away from their candidate of choice. If that's the plan, why not ignore the entire Republican Party? (They're taking nearly half of the votes away) But, that's not really reasonable, because it's half the population of our country, and that's a fact of life.

It's a Democracy, and if you aren't the majority, you have to work that much harder to collect a majority of the votes. So please stop complaining about "Nader this... Nader that...", and convince people that your ideas are worth voting for. If the Democrats do that, they'll win.

Posted by: Haywood at February 22, 2004 02:14 PM | PERMALINK

jayarbee said: "If he and his supporters bring in people who otherwise would not vote, if he rails primarily against Bush, and if he ultimately withdraws and strongly supports the Democratic nominee while urging his supporters to do so also -- stating plainly that there is a REAL difference -- then his candidacy could amount to a net gain for the Democratic ticket.

This would be the best out-come and a real possibility. When Russart asked about this Nader did not say that it couldn't happen.

It is logical too. Nader would be more likely to be listened to in a Dem administration and would certainly have some more sympathetic ears on the inside after a move like that. Maybe even a job?

Wishfull thinking? Maybe, but one can dream!

Posted by: TRep at February 22, 2004 02:15 PM | PERMALINK

Nader does not deserve to be mocked for any reason.

That's cheap.

In all honesty, Nader would shred 99% of the posters here in a free and open debate, and he certainly would not be humbled to the point of being mocked.

Criticize him all you want - one thing about Nader, is that his criticisms always hit home more often against the Democratic Party than anything they spew against him.

Nader has done so many great things for this country and for "the people" that if I hear much more of this mocking of Nader I will work against the Democrats.

No matter how important the election, there is no reason to twist the truth and destroy reputations and characters.

Nader believes strongly in something and he's going after it.

I'd bet anyone on this board that if the Democratic Party did the right thing and put Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) on the platform that Nader would publicly drop out citing that as the reason.

The USA Today supports IRV, editorializes for it, so don't start in that IRV is not mainstream.

IRV would go a long way towards improving turnout and getting people involved in voting and politics again. Why can't the Democratic Party support this? Aren't you the party of the people?

Prove it.

***

Either way, Nader will be lucky to get on the ballots and probably won't be a factor. So don't get your pannies all twisted up. And, as a preemptive by the way, I am not endorsing Nader, or saying in this post that I'm voting for him.

The Democratic Party: Will they be chumps or champs?

Posted by: jimm at February 22, 2004 02:15 PM | PERMALINK

I wholeheartedly agree with the "ignore him" idea. I don't think Nader is really going to be a threat this time around -- surely progressives grasp that getting rid of Bush ASAP is the top priority. However, ignoring the Nader campaign early and often won't hurt; and I think it's what he deserves.
My other idea was a petition by former Nader voters to ask Ralph to drop the hell out. But I think that might just fan the flames of publicity. This one calls for the black hole treatment.

Posted by: Benson at February 22, 2004 02:15 PM | PERMALINK

Who are the Republican(s) other than the extremely small coterie surrounding Roger Stone that are funding Sharpton?

The bigger question is what Democrats are funding him? Just about none. QED.

Posted by: apostropher at February 22, 2004 02:23 PM | PERMALINK

Ralph Nader is 70, an old fart, a member of the check-out generation. Why anyone would pay any attention to him is a mystery to me.

John Ferguson (age 62)

Posted by: John Ferguson at February 22, 2004 02:28 PM | PERMALINK

Let's start a rumor that Pat Robertson is his VP choice and Ralph Reed will be put on the Supreme Court.

Posted by: Mike at February 22, 2004 02:30 PM | PERMALINK

Because Ralph is unable to see the difference between the United States circa 2000 and Amerika under George II, I intend to actively spoil every possible petition to get him on the ballot that I encounter.

I will sign them using the name "Spoiled Petition," thus leaving them open to clear challenge by the Democratic candidate. I encourage others to do likewise.

Sure it isn't nice -- and it sure would have pissed me off in 2000, when I was circulating Nader petitions -- but we are facing a crisis in America and I will not let Ralph's ego or his distorted world-view come between me and new leadership in Washington. If that means "dirty tricks" -- tough shit. I will not sacrifice my friends, family and future for anyone else's self-delusion.

Posted by: Spoiled Petition at February 22, 2004 02:34 PM | PERMALINK

Spoiled,

Are you serious? Is this how YOU want to the game played? And, if all these 'dirty tricks' don't work what then?

Posted by: ed at February 22, 2004 02:39 PM | PERMALINK

But can the rest of us make a pact to just ignore him? He's not even worth criticizing or mocking anymore, and we've all got more important things to do than giving him the attention he craves. Like unelecting our current president, for example.

Works for me, so I'm going to try to make this my last mention of Nader until after the election, but then, if he's caused a single electoral vote to be denied to the Democratic candidate, I can't be responsible for what I might write.

Posted by: Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) at February 22, 2004 02:40 PM | PERMALINK

"...I can't be responsible for what I might write."

Wow! I'm sure to be terrified by your words.

Posted by: ed at February 22, 2004 02:42 PM | PERMALINK

The bigger question is what Democrats are funding him? Just about none. QED.

You don't know what you're talking about. Go to Open Secrets and look up the sources of Sharpton's financing.

Among the top contributors are Radio One, a radio network targeting African-Americans, Black Enterprise Magazine, an African-American fast-food franchisee, the Sheet Metal Workers Union, and an African-American advertising agency.

Of course, this is what passes for proof among the far left these days, making an asinine statement and challenging others to prove it's not true.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 02:45 PM | PERMALINK

EXACTLY :)

Peg, I asked Rook to explain how this works. So far, no answer. Maybe you have an explanation, 'cause I don't get it.

Posted by: FastNBulbous at February 22, 2004 02:47 PM | PERMALINK

I still think that Ralph Nader needs to die ironically after one of the old Corvair anti lock break systems fail and the car hits him.

But, If Nader were mobilize supporters, get IRV provisions in the democratic platform, drop out of the race, quietly throw his mobilized support behind the Democrat, and then become the new EPA chief, that would be OK too.

Posted by: TomK at February 22, 2004 02:51 PM | PERMALINK

You're not dealing with the real question. We have two parties. Less than 50% of the electorate bothers to vote. The rest doesn't care. Instead of Democrats whining about Nader stealing their votes, they should ask themselves why they can't reach the 50% of the electorate that doesn't vote. That's the question. These 50% don't feel at home in either party, so more parties would mean more choice and more people voting. But I guess that would break the two party duopoly and that's why Nader should stay out. The two parties are protecting their jobs and don't want any competition. In this case what's good for democracy is not good for the democrats and the republicans. Go after the 50% non-voters, not after Nader.

Posted by: Ricky Vandal at February 22, 2004 03:14 PM | PERMALINK

Too many liberals have forgotten that electing a Democrat will not solve the problem which is the political status quo in the United States. We could oust Bush next month if a couple hundred thousand people were to converge on the capital with the intention of shutting down DC until the President vacates his office.

Posted by: chsa at February 22, 2004 03:21 PM | PERMALINK

No, the political status quo is the *next* problem to solve after getting rid of Bush. And you forget that liberals aren't allowed to protest any more. A couple hundred thousand people would wind up in a "free speech zone" somewhere in Maryland.

Posted by: Benson at February 22, 2004 03:31 PM | PERMALINK

Democrats have the perfect fix for Ralph Nader that would have won the election for them in 2000.
Its a simple plan....educate your stupid voters to be able to read a 5th grade ballot.

Beteen the ex-cons and illegal aliens voting Democrat and Democrats active plan to block
overseas servicemens ballots from being counted they should have an election lock this time.

Posted by: Keiser Sousa at February 22, 2004 03:58 PM | PERMALINK

You have to love Liberals, jump of Deans bandwagon when he takes a little heat...now you won't support the only real liberal running.

Kerry is one of the super rich..he would be the richest President in history, he's taken more special interest money than anyone else and he's in bed with every industry he ever regulated. he has cocktail parties for companies under inbvestigation by the SEC and takes contributions from foriegners.
Yet, the liberals are embracing him....KERRY IS BUSH LIGHT, at least on the days when he can take a single position on an issue.

Posted by: keisersousa at February 22, 2004 04:03 PM | PERMALINK

Spoil the Petitions?

Posted by: Spoiled Petition at February 22, 2004 04:45 PM | PERMALINK

To dismiss what Nader is doing as a "cry for attention," is to blindly accept the one-party system this country calls democracy. Nader doesn't write about political and social issues to boost his ego, and gain attention. If that was his game he would write about pop culture, or in the same vein of rhetoric as a Bill O'Reilly or Al Franken. If anyone in this upcoming race is running with purpose of gaining attention they'd have the last names Kerry, Edwards, or Bush. Nader is a political maverick in an enviornment that breeds apathy and greed. Don't be sore at Nader because the democrats can't beat Bush on their own. The democrats would be good to embrace more of Nader's principles, and therefore make his run for the White House irrelevant. Ignore Nader's plea for a purely democratic form of government? Ignore Nader's call for diversity within the American political sphere? I'm not telling anyone to vote for the man, but to ignore further diversity within our political system is to ignore every political perspective but the rich white elitist's in this country. It's to blindly accept the corporate influence that goes into every decision in Washington. It's to ignore essential truth.

Mike
Albuquerque, NM.

Posted by: Mike at February 22, 2004 04:48 PM | PERMALINK

"Nader is against free trade, pro regulation of private industry, against laissez faire in general, against the war in Iraq.

Just where do you see their interests intersecting?"

Easily. He overlaps quite a bit with pitchfork Pat Buchanon, thereby illustrating that the political spectrum is best described as a circle vs. linear, and the far lefty-left are a hair's breath of difference from the loonie right.

Those making the contention that if only the dems would embrace IRV then nadir would drop are full of it. He'd just find some other reason to rationalize his run, just as the hemp people won't vote for anyone that won't get them their precious hemp products.

Posted by: jdw at February 22, 2004 04:48 PM | PERMALINK

I can't imagine taking seriously a guy who can't correctly spell Keyser Soze.

I wonder if Ralph Nader can spell it.

Posted by: hueyplong at February 22, 2004 04:55 PM | PERMALINK

Ralphie's not crazy. And it's not about his personal vanity. His strategy is well planned and, from his perspective, sensible. He'd be happy to get almost no votes because that would mean the Dem nominee has not strayed too far from him on his key issues of trade protectionism, market control, treatment of terrorism as a police issue, and extreme environmentalism. He is attempting to impose discipline on the Dem candidate in specific areas of concern to him. From his perspective, if the Dem candidate strays too far on the key issues, he is no longer a better potential president than Bush. He'd rather have a Republican as president than a faux Democrat.

Of course, he will also take some far right votes because the far right and far left have more in common than either does with the center.

Posted by: Wayne at February 22, 2004 04:56 PM | PERMALINK

I am just completely disgusted. Nader no longer has any credibility left. He will accept the millions in GOP contributions and then whine that it wasn't his fault if Kerry loses. The Democratic Party should find some credit extreme right wing Southerner to run and fix it up good for Bush.

Posted by: Belladonna at February 22, 2004 04:59 PM | PERMALINK

Judge Moore for president. He'll impose some discipline on way-too-secular George Bush, and if he doesn't get any votes, he'll be happy, because that will mean that Bush properly respected God and Country in his campaign.

Something like that?

I sure hope we don't lose too many more service men and women while these games are playing out.

Posted by: hueyplong at February 22, 2004 05:04 PM | PERMALINK

"It's an Ego run, nothing more, nothing less."

Having seen this sort of thing now for perhaps the 1,952th time, and also having no inclination whatever to vote for Nader (I did in 2000, though, in Washington state), I must ask: why am I supposed to shudder in horror at this or any other proclamation that Ralph Nader is an egotist? I doubt whether very many in politics, certainly no one running for a national office, exercise their trade out of selflessness and humility. No man thinks that he should be elected President without also thinking very highly of himself. Are Sharpton and Kucinich egotists?

Posted by: Ernest Tomlinson at February 22, 2004 05:07 PM | PERMALINK

While Nader has done many laudable things in the past, some of the defenses of him here seem to ignore the baseline problem with Nader as a presidential candidate: for the second consecutive time, he has announced at a very late stage. If Nader was truly serious, he would have spent the years before 2000 and 2004 working on building a party. He has failed to do so. This greatly diminishes his credibility. It's not a matter of his stances on issues -- it's that he has done nothing to grow that base since the last election.

Thus, I think it's specious to think that his candidacy will force the Democrats to do anything. By not conducting himself in a credible manner, Nader may have hurt his pet issues more than he has helped them.

This is a shame, since I wholeheartedly agree with the comments that have disparaged our two party system. But waiting until about six months before the election to attack, two times in a row, is not quite the way to inspire a revolution.

Posted by: Mike B at February 22, 2004 05:15 PM | PERMALINK

I guess what makes you "shudder in horror" is seeing how many votes Nader got in Florida and then mentally adding, say, 75% of them to Gore's total.

Sharpton and Kucinich didn't get any votes in Florida in 2000, and both will likely support the Democratic nominee.

It's true that Nader can do as he pleases, and it's also true that people are free to vote for him. But it's most definitely true that this website has a lot of readers who see a lot more than a dime's worth of difference between Bush on one side and either Edwards or Kerry on the other, and they're pretty much offended at the notion that the Democratic nominee will be anything like George W. Bush.

The expression of faux surprise at this concept is also offensive to many.

Posted by: hueyplong at February 22, 2004 05:16 PM | PERMALINK

We have two parties. Less than 50% of the electorate bothers to vote. The rest doesn't care. . . . These 50% don't feel at home in either party, so more parties would mean more choice and more people voting.

We do have a lot of parties with candidates on the ballot, but few vote for any but the Big Two. If you run as a third- or fouth-party candidate, people will conclude (rightly, I think) that you're not serious about being anything other than a protest.

In most states it is not difficult to get yourself on the primary ballot of one of the major parties. If you win the primary, you will have the support of the state party organization. You will be acccountable to the voters of your district, not to the party. If you like, you can criticize the party leaders and party establishment.

Posted by: rachelrachel at February 22, 2004 05:40 PM | PERMALINK

"Sharpton and Kucinich didn't get any votes in Florida in 2000, and both will likely support the Democratic nominee."

You're evading the question about ego in particular. Heck, you didn't address it at all.

Moreover, what you say about Sharpton and Kucinich does not necessarily exculpate them; it is possible that they and other "fringe" candidates in the primaries and caucuses (I'd put Lieberman in there too, for example) drew just enough votes away from a candidate who possibly would have been better able to tackle Bush. We'll never know, will we?

As others have said more ably above, when it came to taking votes away from Gore in 2000 and when it comes to taking votes away from (probably) John Kerry in 2004, there were and are many, many other forces at work aside from little Ralph Nader. Any attempt to heap the entire share of blame on him takes a lot of special pleading and a good deal of malice--not the same as righteous anger, very little of which I have seen in threads such as these.

Posted by: Ernest Tomlinson at February 22, 2004 05:51 PM | PERMALINK

Check out www.chippydog.com/nader.html. Fell free to distribute the pictures.

Posted by: Rob G. at February 22, 2004 06:02 PM | PERMALINK

When I was a kid Johnny Carson always made jokes about a candidate named Harold Stassen. The joke was that old Harold always threw his hat in the ring without a chance of winning anything.

Saint Ralph is the new Harold Stassen. He'll run for president everytime and make a fool of himself. Eventually he will be a joke like Stassen. Unfortunately, last election he made a difference. All the difference in Florida.

Posted by: Pug at February 22, 2004 06:21 PM | PERMALINK

Why does the Democratic Party, and its defenders, keep running away from electoral reform? From IRV?

Why don't they care that noone votes?

Are they afraid that if we had IRV that they wouldn't win?

If this is the case, do they deserve to win? Or is it better to keep weighing the system as we do so that the chance is there to win?

Looking at the past few congressional elections, I'd say change is in order.

Regardless, the Democratic Party is supposed to be the party of the people.

Prove it.

Support IRV. Don't just make token gestures, get behind it and champion it.

Or explain why not.

Posted by: jimm at February 22, 2004 06:28 PM | PERMALINK

this will be a short bitter campaign
without the Greens, Nadir won't get on the ballot in many states.

Posted by: ann at February 22, 2004 06:34 PM | PERMALINK

Why not?

I think the burden is on those who want to change the system.

Why?

Posted by: rachelrachel at February 22, 2004 06:37 PM | PERMALINK

I've advocated Instant Runoff Voting (IRV) for some time, and if Nader wants to make himself useful, perhaps he should be pushing for its adoption in local elections. IRV has a number of desirable properties and some intuitive appeal, but most voters view alternative electoral systems with suspicion, if they ever have occasion to think about the subject. Experience with IRV at lower levels might lead voters to become more willing to adopt it at higher levels. The best thing that Nader can do for future minor-party candidates would be to fight for the removal of an institutional feature that contributes heavily to the "wasted vote" phenomenon.

Posted by: Jeremy B. at February 22, 2004 06:47 PM | PERMALINK

Jeremy, I disagree. I'm sick of hearing this "do it local" spin on things. It's a cop out. The bottom-line, rachelrachel, is that we have the very worst voter turnout of any modern liberal democracy, and by a signifigant margin.

By the way, Jeremy, it's also a cop out, and a straw man of sorts, to proclaim voters skeptical of alternative electoral systems. First, I'll need some evidence to support that claim. I'm already seeing a lot of indifference in terms of the Diebold situation. Second, even if voters were skeptical, that is not why the Democratic Party is not bringing IRV on board.

Why doesn't the Democratic Party bring IRV on board and run a real grassroots campaign, that ties together all the loose ends from 2000, like Howard Dean was attempting to do?

And rachelrachel, are you saying you're perfectly happy with the current electoral system? The one that allowed Al Gore to lose in 2000? If we had IRV for that election, we wouldn't be having these arguments about the Nader effect. Most Nader voters likely would have listed Gore second, and most Buchanon and Brown voters likely would have listed Bush second. Either way, we would have had a lot a clearer picture of who won and why.

I have never heard an enlightened argument against IRV. Voting researchers and experts across the board proclaim it superior to the "first past the post" method we use. It's not perfect, and more complex systems may be better mathematically, but the beauty of IRV is that it's simple, not to mention better than the system we currently have.

I find it a problem that we have such an embarrassing voter turnout. We should do something about it. The Democratic Party claims to be the party of the people, of the grassroots, and now that Dean has shown them a way beyond prostituting themselves to big corporations, it's time to prove it.

I don't need to defend the current electoral system. I'll win that debate in an open forum any and every time it starts up. The question is whether we'll wait forever to implement it, while waiting for politics-as-usual to somehow inspire people to start paying attention to the money grab in Washington that is preventing us from capably and aggressively dealing with the immense challenges before us today.

The situation is critical. Pull your heads out of your asses and/or Kansas and take a look around. Instead of fighting amongst ourselves over the scraps of power, we need a solution that makes it moot so we can cooperate on the larger effort and vision.

Posted by: jimm at February 22, 2004 07:18 PM | PERMALINK

There are immense challenges before us today. While we fight each other, the danger only increases. We need solutions, and we need them now. IRV is one of them, and investment in renewable and non-polluting energies another.

The answer to all of our problems rests in taking responsibility for our actions and their impacts. People need to be shaken a bit and told firmly that there's a new game in town, and that their vote really counts. It really makes a difference.

We do that by freeing up the political market, inspiring niche parties to bloom and champion those people who fall between the cracks, and who can ensure them that voting for them still counts, because we have instant runoffs and you're 2nd choice can be one of the big and favored parties.

This is how you get more people to vote. Opening up the political market, and allowing more refined political advocacy that folds elegantly into the larger political groupings. IRV does that. The current system doesn't.

Posted by: jimm at February 22, 2004 07:24 PM | PERMALINK

The more people care, the less Big Money, Big Media, Big Business, Big Pharma, Big Bigs will be able to unduly influence the system.

More votes isn't a panacea, but active engagement in politics, transparency, and accountability is the way we make it happen.

Posted by: jimm at February 22, 2004 07:27 PM | PERMALINK

"Oh, and BTW trolls, thanks for making a Kerry-believer out of this certified-insane Deaniac."

Speaking as a certified Deaniac, who will vote for the good Doctor on March 2, and as the person who posted JUST BEFORE YOU that we should join the USA Corvair club and target Nader's PIRG funding on campus, I'm sick to death of this BS stereotyping.

I'm voting for the Democratic nominee if he is a monkey who carries the Ebola virus.

In all fairness, at least half of the Kucinich supporters would also vote for said simian ahead of GW Bush.

Posted by: Matthew Saroff at February 22, 2004 07:48 PM | PERMALINK

Mad hypocrisy from you so-called liberals here. We true progressives had to sacrifice Howard Dean to even give the Dems a shot at Bush in November and people are now on Nader? What could be more farcical that the Dem leadership not having a sit-down with Nader before they annointed their candidate? The Dems in power right now have nothing to lose by Bush winning another term. They'll still have their comfy offices for a while. Long enough to turn enough tricks to set themselves up back home for a while longer.

And to suggest that we shut someone up just because we don't like what they're saying, only in this case, we actually love what they're saying, but we're too afraid to vote for him? Hypocrisy. Cowardice. Just pathetic. Exactly what describes the so-called Dem party for the last three years. Time to sac up, suckers.

Posted by: Peter at February 22, 2004 07:50 PM | PERMALINK

It's a shame that Mr. Nader, with his history and accomplishments, has determined that he has to use the US presidential process to make a point.

Many of us understand that the US is the capitol of capital and that, in the short-term, the best you can possibly hope for is "the lessor of two evils".

For what reason is Ralph running? Ego, political theory, make a point? What point? Many of us just need some air from 4 years of Bush to figure out what the next fight is. I think that Ralph's theory is "well if things get bad enough, the people will finally revolt."

Using that theory, maybe the best thing for Germany in the 30's was the Nazi's rise to power. After all, the left couldn't get their act together, so was the best thing was that the people see how bad it could get?

At any rate, the liberal/left condemnation of Ralph reveals a real maturity and political development. We need to thank Ralph for demonstrating the dangers of political opportunism and celebrity worship.

Posted by: peBird at February 22, 2004 08:01 PM | PERMALINK

You people are killing me.

Posted by: Gordon the Magnificent at February 22, 2004 08:17 PM | PERMALINK

Steve White says:

"Kerry's recent whining letter to GWB about his Vietnam record is priceless in that regard...a Democratic presidential candidate reduced to whining -- while winning -- in February doesn't bode well for the party."

Hey, Steve? Fuck you.

Kerry to Bush: "If you want to debate the Vietnam era, and the impact of our experiences on our approaches to presidential leadership, I am prepared to do so."

This isn't whining, Dipshit. This is standing up to a bully--which almost everyone, except for the bully's pathetic lickspittles, always admires.

Posted by: forked tongue at February 22, 2004 08:39 PM | PERMALINK

IRV has a number of desirable properties and some intuitive appeal,

Yes, it does, but so does the system we have now.

And rachelrachel, are you saying you're perfectly happy with the current electoral system?

You have to show that IRV is better, which you have not done.

If we had IRV for that election, we wouldn't be having these arguments about the Nader effect.

Perhaps it is so that IRV would have helped the Democrats, but maybe next time it will help the Republicans.

I find it a problem that we have such an embarrassing voter turnout. We should do something about it.

You have provided no evidence that IRV would increase turnout.

I have never heard an enlightened argument against IRV.

Sure, because any argument you hear against it, you will consider unenlightened.

Voting researchers and experts across the board proclaim it superior to the "first past the post" method we use.

Researchers and experts, hey, they're never wrong.

I'll win that debate in an open forum any and every time it starts up.

Ha!

Posted by: rachelrachel at February 22, 2004 09:26 PM | PERMALINK

"Jeremy, I disagree. I'm sick of hearing this "do it local" spin on things. It's a cop out."

Fine, Jimm. I'm more than happy to see the national Democratic Party get behind IRV. But won't more voters support IRV if they don't see it as alien, and won't they be less like to see it as alien if they've had some experience with it? There's a lot of inertia to be overcome, and some successful experiments might help to overcome that inertia.

"By the way, Jeremy, it's also a cop out, and a straw man of sorts, to proclaim voters skeptical of alternative electoral systems. First, I'll need some evidence to support that claim. I'm already seeing a lot of indifference in terms of the Diebold situation. Second, even if voters were skeptical, that is not why the Democratic Party is not bringing IRV on board."

I'm not sure why the Diebold situation is relevant. We're talking about mechanisms for translating votes into seats, not for tallying votes. And yes, I know perfectly well why the Democratic Party doesn't support IRV--it's the same reason the GOP doesn't support it.

As for voter skepticism toward alternative electoral systems, I can't throw polling figures at you, but look at how Lani Guinier was tarred and feathered for daring to suggest that cumulative voting might be a worthwhile means to guarantee opportunities for minorities (of all stripes) to elect candidates of their choice, without having to be beneficiaries of gerrymandering. The debate over her nomination was hardly marked by elevated discussions of the merits of different electoral systems.

My initial statement was more along the lines, expressed so well by a poster in the gerrymandering thread, that most Americans assume that the way we elect officials is, by virtue of its being American, inherently the best possible way. As a supporter of IRV, I clearly disagree with that outlook, but I do recognize its prevalence.

Posted by: Jeremy B. at February 22, 2004 09:44 PM | PERMALINK

Print up bumper stickers like this:

NADER = BUSH

Put them all over college campuses and vegetarian restaurants.

Then never mention that asshole's name again!

Posted by: peejay at February 22, 2004 10:43 PM | PERMALINK

Gore's loss in Florida should be blamed on Pat Buchanon, the Butterfly ballot, and the confused old people trying to vote for their canidate rather then on a man who is standing up for what he believes in and trying to be bring about change in a country that is very resistant to it.

Posted by: Alex at February 22, 2004 10:56 PM | PERMALINK

rachelrachel, I'll let our points, as stated, stand. You seem to have ignored the positions I took in terms of a freer political market and niche parties seeking out those left out of the political process to get involved.

That's pretty tawdry in my opinion.

Regardless, if you can't see that IRV would increase turnout by causing more people to come to the polls since they would be more confident their vote would count, especially if they don't care for either of the main two parties, so be it.

Jeremy, I shouldn't dismiss your well put arguments in favor of spreading IRV on the local level. If you do a search on Google News ("Instant Runoff"), you'll find that this is already happening, and IRV, once explained, is almost universally popular.

In fact, both major parties have investigated it, and the USA Today has endorsed it in a lead editorial.

Sometimes you just have to champion something, even if not universally known, and make it so. That's the power of presidential politics. There is no better way to introduce it to the public then with that kind of attention. Can you imagine George Bush trying to argue against it? I just watched Spinal Tap tonight, and nothing in there would be as funny as George Bush trying to explain why IRV is bad.

Meanwhile, I have to return to rachelrachel for at least one more point. The people who study electoral systems, whether comparatively between democractic systems or mathematically, certainly have something valuable to say about the way we do elections.

The consensus across the board is that "first past the post" is piss, and the worst possible system. Instant Runoff Voting, on the other hand, is considered superior, in almost every respect, and is regularly used by democracies around the world, and is being adopted in many localities around the US today, as I mentioned earlier, and to generally rave reviews.

It is also considered to as a general tonic for political malaise by encouraging a freer and more open political market with more players having a concrete interest in going after those who are currently slipping through the cracks.

A behemoth 2-party system inevitably is going to focus on some at the detriment of others. The evidence, history, and record is obvious. We are a democracy, supposedly the greatest one, and we have by far the worst electoral turnout of modern democracies.

But I guess we shouldn't worry about that...it's beneath us, since the only thing that matters, and the only thing we need on the platform, is to be anti-Bush.

That train is not bound to glory.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:26 AM | PERMALINK

It's very ironic that people will attack a candidate precisely because he is more in line with "Democratic Values" than the Democratic Front Runner is. I'll be voting for John Kerry, but not because he's the noble candidate. I'll vote for Kerry because he can get Bush out. And then I will start working for a real progressive movement again.

We ought to encourage Nader and the DNC to collaborate on a system where Nader handles the wedge issues that Dems can't touch (Gay Marriage, The War) and use them to mobilize outside voters in a "Flirted With Nader, Married Kerry" movement, as Dean did. Voter's aren't all stupid, and progressive voters aren't stupid. The disenfranchised can come in through Nader, and then a portion would realize that they have a better chance of getting power through Kerry. Nader only poses a threat if people are willing to accept that progressives are ignorant voters.

Nader can help us, if he's careful. It remains to be seen how careful he is about it, but I don't think he's stupid, I don't think he's funded by the RNC, and I don't think he's an egoist- or a threat. Ignoring him is fine, but I also think you'll miss out on one of the great stories of the 2004 campaign.

Posted by: scout at February 23, 2004 12:36 AM | PERMALINK

Oh and by the way, A Gay Penguin could beat Bush even if another, more liberal Gay Penguin was running third party.

Bush is going to lose.

Posted by: scout at February 23, 2004 12:40 AM | PERMALINK

The World Socialist Web Site writes this:

"Attacks on Nader for deciding to enter the presidential race are intrinsically anti-democratic. They take as their starting point the preservation of the existing two-party system, which is itself a mechanism for curtailing democratic rights. As Nader pointed out Sunday, without any response from Russert, 'You?d never find that type of thing in Canada or Western democracies in Europe. It is an offense to deny millions of people who might want to vote for our candidacy an opportunity to vote for our candidacy. Instead, they want to say, ?No, we?re not going to let you have an opportunity to vote,? for our candidacy.'

"Towards the end of his television appearance, Nader made reference to the anti-democratic restrictions on third-party and independent candidates under US election laws. 'There?s a tremendous bias in state laws,' he said, 'against third parties and independent candidates bred by the two major parties, who passed these laws. They don?t like competition. So it?s like climbing a cliff with a slippery rope. And anybody who doubts it can look at a list of all these signature barriers and all the obstacles a number of states ... put before third-party candidates.'

"As Russert pointed out, these restrictions will likely prevent Nader from getting on the ballot in many states, despite his celebrity status from a long public career and his well-publicized 2000 presidential campaign. Such laws present an even greater obstacle to socialist opponents of American capitalism, like the Socialist Equality Party presidential and vice-presidential candidates Bill Van Auken and Jim Lawrence.

[...]

"One of the most revealing exchanges in the 'Meet the Press' interview came when Russert asked Nader point-blank whether Al Gore would have gone to war in Iraq if he, rather than Bush, had been declared the victor in Florida in the 2000 presidential campaign.

"Nader replied: 'He would have. I think he was a hawk. He may have done it in a different way. He and Clinton got through Congress a regime-change resolution as a pillar of our foreign policy.'"

Ralph Nader to run as independent in US presidential race
By Patrick Martin, 23 February 2004
http://wsws.org/articles/2004/feb2004/nade-f23.shtml

Posted by: Andreas at February 23, 2004 12:47 AM | PERMALINK

Do you have a single shred of evidence that the implementation of IRV has the effect of increasing voter turnout?

Posted by: rachelrachel at February 23, 2004 01:33 AM | PERMALINK

""""I can't imagine taking seriously a guy who can't correctly spell Keyser Soze.""""

That's because my screen name is Keiser Sousa, I am not a movie character..

RUN RALPH RUN!! At least Ralph never called our soldiers baby killers, campus murderers and minority attackers like John Effing Kerry likes to do.

Posted by: Keise sousa at February 23, 2004 02:21 AM | PERMALINK

"Flirted With Nader, Married Kerry", woke up with Bush...AAAAARRRRRG!!!!

Posted by: Jaz Ewen at February 23, 2004 04:11 AM | PERMALINK

Ralph is really grasping here. Let's not kid ourselves here. Nobody doubts Noam Chomsky's progressive credentials, right?

Chomsky: Nevertheless, though differences are not very large, they do exist. The current incumbents may do severe, perhaps irreparable, damage if given another hold on power - a very slim hold, but one they will use to achieve very ugly and dangerous ends. In a very powerful state, small differences may translate into very substantial effects on the victims, at home and abroad. It is no favor to those who are suffering, and may face much worse ahead, to overlook these facts. Keeping the Bush circle out means holding one's nose and voting for some Democrat, but that's not the end of the story. The basic culture and institutions of a democratic society have to be constructed, in part reconstructed, and defeat of an extremely dangerous clique in the presidential race is only one very small component of that.

Posted by: Diamond LeGrande at February 23, 2004 04:14 AM | PERMALINK

I suggest that Kevin adopt the troll tactic of Theresa Nielson Hayden: remove all vowels from troll comments, but leave them up. This disenvoweling gives folks a sense of what subsequent posters were responding to without shifting the discussion from the actual topic at hand to the needy troll.

And I'm sure that Kevin knows how to use regexp.

cheers,

Marc

Posted by: Marc at February 23, 2004 06:19 AM | PERMALINK

Ralph who?

Posted by: Shelley at February 23, 2004 07:00 AM | PERMALINK

Watching Ralph on television yesterday actually made me sad. I looked up to this man. Now I think he must have lost his mind.

Posted by: HKeith at February 23, 2004 07:34 AM | PERMALINK

I guess what makes you "shudder in horror" is seeing how many votes Nader got in Florida and then mentally adding, say, 75% of them to Gore's total.

According to the 2000 exit polls, Gore would have netted about 3% of the Nader vote. 6% of Nader voters would have voted Gore, 3% would have voted Bush, and 91% would have stayed home.

Of course, even those 3% would have been valuable for the Dems in Florida.

Just for interest, all of the Buchanan voters would have stayed home. 3rd party candidates have little effect.

Posted by: Ron at February 23, 2004 08:16 AM | PERMALINK

It's very ironic that people will attack a candidate precisely because he is more in line with "Democratic Values" than the Democratic Front Runner is.

Self-absorption may be a common trait of politicians of all stripes, but its not a "Democratic Value" of any kind.

Posted by: cmdicely at February 23, 2004 08:23 AM | PERMALINK

As of right now, if three pro-choice presidential candidates each won 24% of the vote and one pro-life candidate won 28%, it won't matter that the country was almost 3 to 1 pro-choice, the next nominees to the Supreme Court will be anti-Roe v. Wade.

Actually, no. If that's the popular vote total, its distribution among the states would control who won, and its quite possible that one of the pro-choice candidates would win, or that there would be an electoral deadlock that would go to the House. If its electoral vote totals, it is an electoral deadlock that would go to the House.

Preference voting of any kind -- even the unnecessarily and counterproductively complicated IRV -- would likely reduce the disincentives to third party voting and the perverse effects it has, but your illustration is not so good.

Posted by: cmdicely at February 23, 2004 08:28 AM | PERMALINK

Bottom line is - GORE lost the election for GORE. Not Nader. Had GORE not been such a corporate knob-shinerr, I would have voted for him. My vote for Nader didn't make a damn bit of difference for Gore anyway, because Gore won my state by an overwhelming margin.

If it seems clear that it's going to be even remotely close in my state, of course, I'd vote for a dead whale carcass if I thought it would keep Bush from winning. Otherwise, I intend to vote for Nader.

My madness here, is not that I want Nader to win. It's that I want change. I want ideas that are outside of the very small and narrow Dem/Repub box they've been pulling them out of for the past 50 years in this country. A vote for Nader is a symbolic victory for those who want that kind of change.

I think it's very important that that message come across. Not at the risk of getting stuck with Bush again, of course. But I've got to be frank here. Kerry SUCKS.

Posted by: Occam's Cuisinart at February 23, 2004 10:48 AM | PERMALINK

So you're proposing to do to Nader what the mainstream press did to him in 2000, ignore him!?
Well, tough tittie. His time has come once again, and this time he will not be ignored. The press coverage is already happening, and you pathetic armchair pundits think you can make a difference? Ha!
If Democrats were only representing the needs of the people, instead of being the same as republicans without John Ashcroft, than Nader wouldn't have a plank to stand on.
We need a political discourse in this country about making the kind of changes that will serve, We the people, not the corporations who buy and sell politicians, and discard them when they no longer serve their puposes.
Everything this congress does serves pork barrel politics or the money changers directly. Kerry will not change that.
Wake up! Nader will stir up these issues, and it's refreshing.
You all sound like Bushites who want to stifle dissent as un-patriotic. You call yourselves progressives? You should be ashamed of yourselves. Regime change should really begin at home.

Posted by: Richisgame at February 23, 2004 11:03 AM | PERMALINK

What an absolutely wonderful conception of democracy liberals have here...

Exclude as many voices as possible so our corporate-funded, Patriot Act-supporting, Iraq War-supporting, "No Child..."-supporting, pro-corporate trade-supporting liberal can run against the...

...corporate-funded, Patriot Act-supporting, Iraq War-supporting, "No Child..." -supporting, pro-corporate trade-supporting conservative.

Love Them, They Are LIberals...

As Phil Ochs so brilliantly sang 40 yrs ago in honor of the liberals of that era, his words still ring true today.

"...10 degrees to the left of center in good times,
10 degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally..."

We can change that to read something like,
"1 degree to the left of center in peacetime,
89 degrees to the right of center in times of war."

Gotta love those liberals...

Posted by: Elias at February 23, 2004 11:42 AM | PERMALINK

The highest turnout in the world among nations without compulsory voting has been in Malta, where they use an IRV-type system of proportional representation, and turnout has been more than 95 percent in recent elections. Of countries with compulsory voting, Australia has had the highest turnout, also with IRV.

Obviously, this is not empirical evidence, per se, so I'll poke around for that. Keep in mind that empirical evidence is not needed to make the case. Anecdotal evidence like that above, along with the obvious effects of IRV encouraging a freer and more open political market, with more players and incentives, since theoretically every voter (or non-voter) who may slip through the cracks could end up with someone foraging for their vote.

Something like supply and demand. Ultimately, I'm saying that the political market is artificially constricted, and this contributes to great inefficiencies, and in the case of politics, a general malaise, resulting in the worst turnout of any major modern democracy by a signifigant margin.

Apparently, Rachel doesn't see that as a problem, and, due to my speaking of IRV in a Nader thread, insists on arguing with me about what is almost universally considered by those presented with the idea a superior voting process.

Like I said, do a search on "Instant Runoff" in Google News and get a feel for the momentum that is already there and the evidence that people are very warm to the idea when it is presented to them.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:14 PM | PERMALINK

Check out the California IRV Coalition for a concise explication of the merits of IRV.

That's a PDF, so if you prefer the HTML version, go here.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:18 PM | PERMALINK

Why Don't You Vote?

A larger perspective from the Christian Science Monitor, backed by polls from the Pew Foundation, that show that the top reason by a wide margin that people don't vote is dislike (74%) of the available candidates.

I maintain that a freer and more open political market would help to fill these gaps, and by the laws of supply and demand deliver candidates who would appeal to people, and thus increase voter turnout. With the implementation of IRV, this would also roll up into the major party system, while encouraging the major parties to expand their frames and form alliances.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:22 PM | PERMALINK

Okay. That's it. About 10 minutes of searching through Google. As for actual empirical research, I'm sure some exists somewhere, but is harder to find. Even that research has limitations, and will mainly work in comparative research, along with actual cases of switches to IRV, and analysis of the turnout effects and political participation.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:26 PM | PERMALINK

One last comment. Sorry for the thread monopolization of late...

As of right now, if three pro-choice presidential candidates each won 24% of the vote and one pro-life candidate won 28%, it won't matter that the country was almost 3 to 1 pro-choice, the next nominees to the Supreme Court will be anti-Roe v. Wade.

This is not really true. I sympathize, but it betrays an overwhelming emphasis by everyone on the president, and ignores the great value of Congress (our closer representatives, and makers of law) and the separation of powers.

By the above scenario, 72% of voters were pro-choice. The chances of a pro-life nominee being confirmed by the Senate would be almost nil. That is the one of the great benefits of the separation of powers, and the reason we originally did not want an "imperial" president. How soon we forget.

cmdicely: even the unnecessarily and counterproductively complicated IRV

Meanwhile, this is an example of a blatantly unfair and unsupported assertion meant to discredit IRV. IRV is not unnecessarily or counterproductively complicated. In fact, it's not complicated at all. You vote for your first choice, and then your second choice.

I think people can get a handle on that. How stupid do we take people for? IRV is not complicated - it's actually championed as the simple solution, as opposed to more complicated preferential balloting options that mathematicians argue for.

Cmdicely, that kind of discourse is tawdry, and easily refuted so ultimately making you look bad too.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 12:37 PM | PERMALINK

the worst anti-union record this side of Andrew Carnegie

I'm unaware of this. Anyone have details?

On the area or responsibility for 2000, Gore ran a crappy campaign, but there was a confluence of other items too.

* You had massive voter disenfranchisement in Missouri, Florida, and Tenessee.

* You had Katherine Harris and her activities regarding the vote.

* You had Renquist, Scalia, Thomas, O'Connor, and Kennedy.

Nader is no more responsible for Bush than Harris, Renquist, Scalia, Thomas, O'Connor, and Kennedy.

That still puts him in the, "His severed head should be on the end of a pike" category.

Also, Nader has completely disavowed any responsibility, and the rest admit (in the case of Harris, revel in) their responsability.

Posted by: Matthew Saroff at February 23, 2004 12:51 PM | PERMALINK

The democratic party has been in steady decline for - what is it now? - three decades, or has it been four already? Well, anyway, why don't we ignore the democrats for a change, instead of ignoring someone, like Ralphie boy, who is at least being, ahem, realistic. It is not realistic to hope for the democratic decline to suddenly, miraculously change course. It is realistic, though, to hope that the democrats just get it over with and shrink down to about 25% of the electorate - this, combined with the seizure of the republican party by the neo-cons and the christrian right will finally open up the playing field in US politics for some genuine debate. The democrats and republicans could easily, in the near future, find themselves with less than 50% of the electorate between them. This is already the case if you count unregistered voters - but I am talking about people who will actually vote.
Ralph's biggest problem is that he sounds defensive and unsure of himself. 3.5 years of people blaming him for Al Gore's lack of testicular fortitude have taken their toll on poor Ralph.

Posted by: curt steinmetz at February 23, 2004 01:10 PM | PERMALINK

Kevin, your goofy side is showing again. Ignore Nader??? He's the gofer for the AntiChrist. I hate him worse than I hate Bush. In fact, I hold him directly responsible for the war against Iraq, the looting of the Treasury, the rape of the envirnoment, and the shredding of the Constitution.

Ignore him? Hell! I'd throw rotten tomatoes. He should be email-spammed, heckled, villified, condemned, and run out of town on a rail. Every good thing he ever did has turned to shit. From now on, he slimes every progressive cause he ever comments on. He's sick. He needs to be put away. He's a menace to the national security.

I hope he comes to Taos so I can picket.

Posted by: John H. Farr at February 23, 2004 03:17 PM | PERMALINK

I voted for Nader last time. Nader did not take my vote away from Gore. My second choice would have been Hagelin. My third would be to maybe skip the category altogether. My fourth choice might have been for Gore.

It's presumptious and condescending to assume that Nader voters would have voted democrat. Most Nader voters voted the way they did because they thought that the Democratic Party is part of the problem.

Posted by: Llotnarf at February 23, 2004 03:26 PM | PERMALINK

And...

Gore lost because Gore lost. Not because Nader made him lose. If he were a better candidate to begin with (and if the media treated him more fairly), he wouldn't have won the popular vote by such a slim margin. It was because he wasn't able to win by a large rmargin that Nader voters suddenly became a significant percentage.

Democrats need to stop whining about Nader making Gore lose and instead just face the fact that their candidate wasn't as good enough as he needed to be.

Posted by: Llotnarf at February 23, 2004 03:32 PM | PERMALINK

I'm pretty sure that Nader is counting on a signifigant Democratic victory this go-round. All the signs are there to see it. Iraq won't be solved, and the economy (especially jobs) still in limbo, or perhaps starting to stagger forward.

This should be a recipe for a big Democratic win, if they don't handicap themselves, and if they champion a winning and charismatic platform beyond "anyone but Bush" (which will only work with those who already are against Bush, duh).

Should this play out, Nader won't even be a factor, one way or the other. At best, he'll be able to keep the Democrats from selling out the progressive agenda while also being another source of dissonant information in regards to the performance and record of ex-President Bush.

Posted by: jimm at February 23, 2004 04:27 PM | PERMALINK

Who's Ralph?

Posted by: shel at February 23, 2004 08:28 PM | PERMALINK

I voted for Nader in 2000, but only because I am in an undisputed state; if I was in a swing state I would have voted for Gore. I vote Democratic on the state level, and actually tend to vote Republican on the local level because believe it or not in our county (Maui) the Republican council candidates tend to be the most supportive of community and the environment and less in hock to wealthy interests. I mention that just to say that I vote on issues and candidates, not parties.

Before he announced, I was opposed to it and wished he wouldn't have. After listening to his interview with Russert and some of his other news appearances, I actually think I understand why he is running and think it could be beneficial, for the Democrats and the country.

First off, it seems to me there are a lot of overreactions on both sides. I think Nader is a bit overboard with his criticism of the "liberal elite" for stopping him from running, or "censoring" him as he said on NPR a couple weeks ago. Expressing a difference in strategy and urging him not to run is fair for them, just as choosing to run is fair for him, and I think he would be better off just explaining why his strategy differs, which he started to do on the other news programs after his appearance with Russert.

On the other side, I think it is ridiculous to dismiss his run as a manifestation of ego, which seems to be the predominant reason people can come up with. I really believe Nader is about the least egotistical or narcissistic person I can think of, based on decades of selfless public service. Whether I agree or disagree with his strategic reasons, I truly think he believes in what he is doing, and is doing it for what he sees as the good of the country, not at all for his ego.

In terms of his overall effect on the race, first I think he will have a minimal draw on the Democratic vote because so many people are focused on removing Bush and remember how their vote for Nader may have affected the outcome in 2000.

At the same time, I think Nader can actually do the Democrats a favor by levelling attacks against Bush in a way that they may be reluctant to do. And rather than drawing votes off from the progressive voters he may actually make Kerry or Edwards look more moderate to independent or moderate voters. He may even pick up some conservative voters who are realizing that Bush isn 't actually a conservative but don't want to vote for a Democrat, because Nader agrees with them on issues like the Patriot Act and civil rights, pork spending in the energy and medicare bills, etc.

Clearly he intends to direct his attacks mostly against Bush, but at the same time, I think it is important that Democrats in their "anybody but Bush" fever don't overly idealize their candidate and lose all critical analysis, and I hope Nader will provide some healthy perspective and keep the Democrats honest and hold them accountable for their promises.

I think that the issues Nader raises are extremely important to be included in the campaign, and if he didn't run, he would not have a voice to do any of this. If he had gone on Meet the Press and said he wasn't running, he would not have been on all the other news shows later that day and the next, attacking Bush and raising issues in a way that the Democrats haven't or can't.

I think rather than attacking Nader and dismissing his run as ego, the Democrats should think about how they can use his campaign strategically against Bush, and how he can actually be an ally. Even though somewhat counterintuitive, this is clearly his intention, and I think it could just work.

Posted by: Scott Crawford at February 23, 2004 08:59 PM | PERMALINK

Had Gore allowed Nader to join his debate with Bushliar, Nader would have picked Bushliar apart, allowing Gore to appear normal instead of schoolmarmish.

Had the DNC allowed Nader to join the debates, Nader and his followers would have been available to fight in Florida (instead of being sidelined and vengeful).

IF Nader attacks Bushliar, and calls for impeachment, and helps us get that ball rolling, long before November's Diebold Wonder (and October's MTE surprise), then I'm all for him doing that. What's the downside?

Either Bushliar will lose by 80% in a fair election; or they will steal the election like they did in 2000, and Nader is off the hook in either case (and in the case of 2000, to those of us who have gotten over the canard of blaming Gore or Nader for what is clearly a COUP).

Posted by: Paul at February 24, 2004 12:01 AM | PERMALINK

This is great! Making Dems look like rabid repubs...
Kinda makes ya think, no?

Posted by: eatyrgarbage at February 24, 2004 05:28 AM | PERMALINK

Paul-

Please call my office and schedule an appointment as soon as possible. It is obvious we need to adjust your meds again.

Posted by: Dr. Dan at February 24, 2004 06:19 AM | PERMALINK

Even better than ignoring him, let's agree with him.Whenever he makes an anti-Bush statement, draw attention to it. Whenever he makes a statement noting that the dems and the pugs are identicle, note the similarities, but highlight the differences. In short, steal his thunder. And at every opportunity, point out that in the last election, Nader got lots and lots of cash from the same people who funded the Bush campaign, and it's probably going to happen again this time.

Posted by: Mister at February 24, 2004 07:42 AM | PERMALINK

Nader is playing mean-spirited politics. Disrupting the Democratic party is his only purpose in life. Nader is nothing compared to "Aunuld". If that constitutional amendment allowing foreign born citizens to assume the Presidency passes, I will truly be frightened.

Posted by: secret at February 24, 2004 01:12 PM | PERMALINK

Why not just listen to Nader, and calibrate the platform accordingly?

You already agree with him on just about everything.

Posted by: jimm at February 24, 2004 01:56 PM | PERMALINK

This is the first time I've posted to this site, tho I've lurked here before. I know this is a discussion you want to get over with and that I'm belaboring it. But here goes anyway. I will never understand the irrational hatred that Ralph Nader generates among liberals. All us Americans owe the man gratitude for his work in saving lives. More Americans survive road accidents today than 30 years ago, and that's because of Ralph Nader. Please remember that Nader's run in 2000 caused thousands of people who NEVER WOULD HAVE BOTHERED TO VOTE IN THE FIRST PLACE to go to the polling booths. While there (as Congressmen Gephardt and Leahy recognize) they voted for *Democratic* candidates in both houses of Congress. Without these Nader voters, some key Democratic congressmen and women would've lost their seats in very tight races. I'm one of those voters. I live in NY and knew Gore would win the state anyway. I loathed both main candidates. I wasn't going to vote until Ralph got in the race. While in the booth, I voted for all Democratic candidates in federal, state and local races. Also please remember that Nader voters comprised Republicans and Independents as well as Democrats. And that many Democrats and independents voted for Bush. To say that Nader lost the election for Gore is to give him far too much power than he had or has now. For someone whom everyone dismisses as irrelevant, he certainly seems to have quite a lot of power to make one of the two main parties tremble with such fear and hysteria. I wish liberals would please stop screeching at us Nader supporters. I won't vote for Nader this time but the Dem party and its liberal amen corner shouting at me with such disgust and contempt doesn't make me any more amenable to voting for a corporate whore like Kerry. I don't see this sort hysteria against the idea of multiple candidates in presidential elections in any other democratic country. Only in the US it seems is it a crime against humanity for someone with progressive politics to offer an alternative to voters for president. And I didn't see Republicans screeching at Ross Perot and his supporters either.

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Didn't Nader say he would withdraw from the race if it looked like he would have a significant chance of throwing the election to Bush?

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